Are you a parent of a child with special needs who is considering homeschooling? Or perhaps you're already homeschooling, but you're facing challenges and seeking guidance to build stronger bonds with your children? In this episode, host Lacy Estelle is joined by Katie Keene, a homeschooling expert and founder of Her Home and Hearth, to delve into the world of special needs parenting and homeschooling.
In this thought-provoking episode, Katie Keene shares her personal journey and insights, offering practical advice and inspiration to help you on your own homeschooling path. Katie Keene also highlights the importance of building a "family government" that fosters communication and collaboration, enabling parents to avoid losing their temper and maintain a peaceful home environment. Discover how homeschooling can provide a deep, connected experience for both parents and children.
Links & Resources Mentioned:
For more from Katie Keene, visit her Linktree at @familysuccess or find her podcast, Her Home and Heart, wherever you listen!
HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association) is the trusted movement leader that makes homeschooling possible by caring for member families and protecting and securing the future of homeschooling, www.hslda.org
Reach out to Lacy at:
Facebook group: @anADDwoman
Lacy’s Facebook group:
Mothering the Storm Accountability and Support Group
Gyre & Gimble Pencil Gidgets – Textured Silicone Pencil Sleeve for Serene and Silent Fidgeting (at Amazon)
[00:00:00] Lacy Estelle: Welcome to an ADD woman with Lacy Estelle. This is the podcast for Christian ADHD women to learn from each other, to hear other stories and perspectives. But most of all, to be reminded. I'm so glad that you're here and I hope that whatever you listen to, however much you listen to, that you get a lot from it.
[00:00:29] It's Lacy Estelle with an ADD woman podcast. I'm so excited to bring you a guest today, Katie Keene. Katie Keene is the host of the top 1 percent globally rated podcast, her home and heart. and host to a membership community of beautiful Christian homeschooling families on the journey to peace at home and generational family success despite the challenges of raising a special needs child.
[00:00:54] Permission is simple, to ensure that no family breaks apart simply due to lack of tools to create a solid, peaceful, and joyful family foundation at home. And Katie is most passionate about helping special needs families create strong bonds and deep roots so they don't wake up one day to regret. So you can learn more about how she teaches moms to build a successful and joyful home and to grab coupons, freebies, and links to Katie's best kept secrets if you go to the link that I will put in the show notes for it's her link three for family success.
[00:01:25] So hi, Katie, thank you so much for coming on
[00:01:27] Katie Keene: the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here.
[00:01:31] Lacy Estelle: So, tell me a little bit more about how you got started in this. I know it's very personal to you. I can't wait to hear, uh, the personal background that brought you to this point. And why you chose to focus on, you know, homeschool families with special needs.
[00:01:45] Katie Keene: Yeah, absolutely. So I am a former Navy brat and then turned Navy spouse and, um, had kind of a glamorous life. I would have to say, never expected that I'd run into having a batch full of beautiful children that had a lot of challenges. My husband, the same, never could have imagined, but that's where we found ourselves, you know?
[00:02:04] And so we ended up homeschooling, not actually because of the special needs. We didn't realize what we were about to face, but because God prepared us. So we found ourselves stationed in a place that had horrible schools. I mean, just absolutely horrible. We were only there for 18 months, getting my husband's master's degree in the state of California.
[00:02:23] And we knew we were not going to subject our children to what had happened in their legislation in that state and then what was happening in the schools. So we thought, well, all right, we'll just try this homeschool thing. And we had been surrounded by all these families because God's hilarious. So he surrounded us with all these incredible families who were homeschooling, whose kids could look us in the eye, speak in full sentences, use better manners than most kids that we knew, and who were also the older ones getting into incredible universities.
[00:02:51] And so we were never going to be that weird homeschool family. We had come from. You know, lines of public educators and, and we love teachers and yet here we were. So fast forward, God set that stage for us because he knew we were going to need to support our children who had a lot of extra needs that could not have been supported properly to the level that we've been able to support them had we kept them in a more traditional setting.
[00:03:16] So it's been a huge blessing for us. Um, we have five all the way from 19 years old down to nine. And, um, it's a busy, fun house here.
[00:03:26] Lacy Estelle: I know the feeling of a busy, fun house, maybe a little bit of chaos thrown in there, too. So can you tell me more about the needs of each of your children, if that's not too personal?
[00:03:37] Katie Keene: sure. No, absolutely. Our oldest was born with a stroke. He had a stroke while being born. We had no idea if he would walk or talk or anything, and God has been so gracious and blessed him with what appears to have been a full recovery. He's 19. He's an entrepreneur. He builds websites and funnels and with certain software and has a podcast in YouTube encouraging young men to really follow Christ and have self confidence based on what Christ says about them.
[00:04:02] It's really fun. So great kid. And then my 17 year old, um, has had her fair share of lots of struggles. You would never know because of the way that God has allowed us to work with her and partner with her. She is already over two years into owning her own business at 17. It's really fun, great confidence.
[00:04:23] She knows, you know, that the Lord created her unique and that there is a purpose for that. So then we have a 14 year old who's a budding author in the middle of writing his first book and a 10 year old profoundly disabled that literally the light of our lives. Precious boy who was a gift from God and he takes 24 7 care from our family.
[00:04:45] And then a nine year old who is going on 40, um, keeps us on our toes. So lots here. He has all the allergies. So we've had a really full wide range of things to deal with in our family.
[00:04:57] Lacy Estelle: Wow. Yeah, that is, that is definitely something to say. Everything's keeping you on your toes. And, uh, so tell me about now what you offer and what we've, what we talked previously about, um, was that you help homeschool families obviously figure out a way to, to take their dream of homeschool or maybe not their dream, but or maybe their realization that homeschool is the solution for them or the best solution for their children.
[00:05:24] Um, and actually make it a, a peaceful, you know, not only transition, but actually a peaceful and productive system for them. So can you tell me in a nutshell, kind of how you do that? Like, what is the process, you know, from point A to point B? Like if I were to sit down with you and say, I have a 14 year old who hates school, hates going to school, cause I literally do, and I'm thinking of homeschooling him, but also he struggles with the idea of like having to sit and listen and learn from mom.
[00:05:52] So what. Could you do what? What sort of ideas would you have for me?
[00:05:58] Katie Keene: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So that's so exciting. I'd want a couple hours to actually sit and brainstorm. But with a kiddo like that, we would basically look at What are his passions? What are his interests? We talk about what the transition is like from a public school setting into a homeschool setting.
[00:06:14] We would discuss the difference between school and actual home education because they're very, very different. A lot of parents have this misconception because we just simply don't know any better. I myself was this person in the beginning that we think we have to replicate public school at home. That is not actual education.
[00:06:32] And in a home environment, we have so much more opportunity and it takes so much less time. But parents think, Oh, no, I'm going to have to spend eight hours a day and we're going to do English at nine and math at 10 and science at 11 and lunch at 12. And I'm never going to be able to have personal time or take care of my other kids.
[00:06:48] And it's going to be this like raging war in my home. It's not actually true. Homeschooling is this huge, tremendous gift where we can instill a lot of self confidence in our children, where we can help them see what God has gifted them with uniquely, and where we can teach them the ability to be self motivated instead of externally motivated.
[00:07:07] To this day, I struggle a lot to not have to rely on external motivation because that is what was ingrained in me. So deeply during my time in all the public educational settings and my experiences as a mother, a special needs mother, a homeschooling mother and an entrepreneur have radically shown me and helped change me into the realization of us relying on God and the fact that we need to also rely on our own self direction and be our own motivator.
[00:07:38] So. It's something we can give our kids as a gift early on, just can take some time. And so with your kiddo, with every family, it's a very unique journey. It's not something that's a one size fits all by any stretch of the imagination, which is why I'd love to do one on one coaching with people. And I also end up, I have offered.
[00:07:56] Do you have a membership of families? It's small right now, but we are having a ball to support each other because then the moms can come in and actually share their own experiences. And we have families in there all the way from little kids to the high school age. And one that actually just got pulled out of public school.
[00:08:12] to be homeschooled around the same age as yours. And you know, we just need that place as moms to say, Oh my gosh, can you even believe what my kid did? Like last time we had our mom's meeting, we were sitting there laughing so hard. We were crying. We rarely get an opportunity to do that, but it's great to brainstorm and share and support with each other because I don't personally know absolutely everything, but as a collective group, we have so much more knowledge and resource and it's just, it's great.
[00:08:38] So that's how I support families now.
[00:08:41] Lacy Estelle: That's awesome. I love the group mindset, too, because I found that, especially those of us who have special needs kids or who struggle with special needs ourselves, I mean, I wouldn't constitute myself as special needs, but I definitely have ADHD. I probably had a learning disability growing up that I Bye.
[00:08:57] I've never really addressed it, just found ways to work around. And, uh, there's something to be said for the fact that the only type of people, the only people that can truly understand what it's like to be in our shoes are the ones who are also in our shoes. So that is so critical. I think that's also really critical for the success that.
[00:09:15] Each of those parents has in the transition. So can you tell me too about, you know, cause you said that you didn't replicate the school day. So what did homeschool look like for you and your situation? Yeah. I mean, five kids, large age range span, I'm sure that it looked very different. And so I'm just curious.
[00:09:31] Katie Keene: So school for us can look like sitting on the couch under a blanket with a fabulous novel. And then very organic conversations about what character attributes did we see? What, you know, region of the world were those people in? Oh, let's look at the map. Where is that in relation to other countries?
[00:09:49] Oh, they talked about penguins. Oh, let's go see those penguins at the zoo. What can we learn about them from a book about science? Oh, I have a penguin math game. Oh, let's play that. You know, it can look that organic where we've now covered, you know, geography, we can cover sociology. If we want to, we can look at history.
[00:10:07] When were those, when's the setting in this novel? You know, we can tie everything in so that the kids just think we are having a ball all day long and actually we're covering all the subjects. And then my job as a mom partnering with these children on their learning journey. is to cover it, like to record it, basically, and keep track of it so that I can then speak the language of the educational institutions.
[00:10:30] In my state, we have to report what we've done. So I have to speak educational ease, if that makes sense. It's like another language. But we are legitimately learning and at a much deeper level. So if you go ask my nine year old today about any animal in the zoo, you will be shocked at what he will be able to tell you.
[00:10:47] far more than I do about most animals, the regions that they live in, how fast they can run or not run or all the things, all the things. And I did not have any, any real part in that except encouraging him. He just simply has a passion. And it's the same with my other children. So homeschooling can look very different.
[00:11:06] It can look like some days where you feel like you've got nothing done. And other days where like This is a massive win. Wow. We got so much done. It's incredible, but it's not a, you know, textbook focused. Sure. They get worked in where it's appropriate, of course, but that's not the only thing. And we're not checking off boxes to prove that we're learning.
[00:11:27] We're actually learning at this deep organic level that creates stronger relationships and an interest in the child to continue in their life with the ability to learn anything they want to. And to be able to passionately pursue the things God's calling them to because they already have the tools to learn that thing and the desire and motivation to do it.
[00:11:45] So it's really fun.
[00:11:47] Lacy Estelle: So it sounds to me like you try to focus most of your attention on teaching your child to learn how they learn. Yes. And then once they've kind of learned how they learn, then you just work in like the mom encouragement stage, which is the fun mom stage. Let's be real. I mean, yeah, that's, that's what every mom wants to just be able to do.
[00:12:07] Right. Like, I don't want to have to be the hard line of you got to do your homework kind of thing, but then just an encouragement to keep, to keep exploring and exploring that, you know, what it is that they're, and because they have that foundation set. How they learn, you know, them individually.
[00:12:25] Katie Keene: That's right.
[00:12:25] It's never too late either. I mean, you can actually pull a student out in high school. You're just going to have a bit harder time adjusting. Some people think it's, you know, just too late. If you pull a kid out earlier, it's just easier to make that transition. It's easier to set some of that groundwork that can create a much more simple flow through high school.
[00:12:44] Um, but at 14, if you, you know, let's say you pulled your son out and you decided to homeschool him, you could still have an incredible journey. You would have to likely start with some time doing what we would call unschooling, which is a term a lot of parents don't like. Um, and de schooling, which is basically trying to adjust his mindset.
[00:13:02] Like you, you had said at one point, like he not necessarily would want to learn from you. Through de schooling, you actually can create a whole new rhythm, a whole different. I don't know, environment, basically, where he doesn't have to feel like he's learning from you. You're just learning alongside of him.
[00:13:17] You know, you're just facilitating his learning journey. And I've seen it done successfully many, many, many times. Over and over again with parents who have had a need to pull Children from high school and have successfully done it. And by the way, college is actually look for homeschool students. They want to give scholarships to homeschool students.
[00:13:37] They are more likely to complete college and represent the school well. So they are desired and the majority of homeschool students also perform better on standardized tests by an average of 20 points higher on the standardized tests with nothing special extra done. It's just because they've had that opportunity to have that personalized learning path and oftentimes more exposure to learning how to take tests.
[00:14:01] Because that can become part of our curriculum. So, it's kind of neat. That is awesome.
[00:14:08] Lacy Estelle: Does your child struggle with sitting still in class, but fidgets and fidget cubes and things along those lines, the teacher is like, yeah, no. Those are way too disruptive. We're not having any of that. I want to talk to you guys about Geyer and Gimbel.
[00:14:23] Geyer and Gimbel actually sent me their brand new Wyatt fidgets for the classroom. Now, they're like these extended long pencil grips that have different textures on them, but they go on a mechanical pencil, which is wonderful. And they're bright and colorful. They're rubber. And the nice thing is, is that your child can twist it, mess with it in his hand, her hand, whatever.
[00:14:46] It's not going to make a sound. It's not going to disrupt the kids around them. And the teacher is probably not even going to notice. So check them out on Amazon. I will link to Guyeran Gimble's shop in the show notes and specifically their pencil gidgets.
[00:15:02] So let me ask you to. So when you, you say, you know, you're not just checking boxes, but they're, like you said, you do have to record what you're learning or what you're teaching and then report it to your state. Now, I'm not sure what my state has, but as far as that goes, like, was that difficult in the beginning at least?
[00:15:20] Or is that something you see with a lot of parents who are new to homeschooling that bridging that gap of like. Okay, I want to do interest based and things along those lines, but also they, they still have to be able to meet like a, a state requirement or a state line. Like for me right now, even with my high schooler, he comes home and he's like, well, I need help on my math.
[00:15:39] I'm like, okay, well, hang on. I'm going to have to YouTube it a couple of times because I don't remember how to do this particular math formula. So did you find that, you know, hitting those types of things was still a little bit difficult for you or did it just kind of come natural as you. Progressed throughout your journey
[00:15:57] Katie Keene: because my mindset was so stuck rigidly in what school needed to look like being the public type It did not come naturally to me because I had to learn to really let go and think outside the box But once I did that things come far more naturally now It's much more organic because i'm not focused on me and what I think Education needs to look like instead I'm focused on my child's unique needs.
[00:16:17] So what took a little bit of effort for me was learning how to record things properly so that I could show the value of what the children were learning in a way that did translate into what my personal state required. Every state is different. And Ultimately, it needs to be between us and God that we are doing our absolute best for our child and giving them all access to the whole world, that the world can like be their oyster by us providing them opportunities to learn it and experience it and taste and see what God has put out there.
[00:16:47] But he says, then we are also under the authority of those put in charge of us. And that means our state. So learning your state requirements is not hard. There is an actual organization out there called the Homeschool Legal Defense Agency, HSLDA. They have a website. They have tons of information. I always suggest that any parent who's going to homeschool have a membership with them before you do anything else.
[00:17:09] They give you templates. They give you legal protection should you ever be challenged. Just for the price of your membership, I am not affiliated. I am not making anything off of saying this. I'm simply a very happy parent. I highly recommend looking at them and getting a membership with them because they can also guide you step by step through all of the legal requirements.
[00:17:26] But you know, the rest of the journey is just going to be very unique. It's like dancing. And, you know, just really have to learn to be intuitive with your child and with yourself and paying attention, sitting back and just really looking at what's going on, praying that God would open your eyes to what is the best next step.
[00:17:46] And it becomes this really beautiful journey and it does not feel so hard anymore. In fact, it feels Very rich and very deep and it feels very connected and it gives you an opportunity to really bond with your family in ways you wouldn't necessarily have had the opportunity to do.
[00:18:04] Lacy Estelle: So, yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about that component as well.
[00:18:07] So like, because, you know, I feel like there's this push pull, this push pull sort of, uh, rhythm with my son with, with high school and how he's struggling academically and stuff like that. But like, I. I don't harp on him, but I, you know, I'll put boundaries in place to try to motivate him to want to do his schoolwork.
[00:18:26] You know, he wants to be able to play sports or he wants to be able to go places on the weekends. And so I'll put boundaries in place, but then that ends up being like this tug of war with him. Have you noticed that, you know, with your children, because you did the homeschool process and because of the way you did it and the way you structured it, that your relationships with them haven't had to deal with that kind of.
[00:18:47] Push pull, especially the special needs children. I find that they tend to also be very headstrong and it's all, all in good ways, but also sometimes in bad ways. When it comes to being a parent that push pull wasn't as, um, prominent as you moved through, like, you know, the teen years, cause that's something that we're, we're just turning the corner in just getting into and.
[00:19:09] There's been a few times that, you know, I've really seen those impulsive teen decision making kind of rear its ugly head, but it's a different, it's a different dynamic. And so I'm just wondering how much of that you noticed helped, like you said, cultivate those bonds and you didn't have. You know, that feeling like, you know, your child's going to school and they're dealing with a teacher that's telling them, this is what you have to do, and then they come home to a parent telling them, this is what you have to do, where instead you're that parent teacher role, but you're also facilitating like a relationship around that is, is that, am I hitting, am I hitting the nail on the
[00:19:45] Katie Keene: head with that?
[00:19:46] I love this question because what this. Allows an opportunity for is to develop a family team and the way that you can do that is through the establishment of a family vision. That you create at first as a couple and then with your children and their input and then a family government, which is actually something that my membership has an opportunity to take as a course, I have a small course in their teach and walk parents through step by step how to go ahead and develop a family vision that's aligned with God and with what you want for your family and then a family government, which the family government is where you can eliminate a lot of the push pull.
[00:20:25] A lot, because it's established first by the parents, just like any government, you're going to create, you know, rules and regulations, but the citizens have a voice. Everyone is seen, everyone is heard. And then we establish methods, like, well, rhythms, I would say, of a regular family meeting. So that there is an opportunity for everyone respectfully to be heard and for me, because I find myself very easily overwhelmed, especially when we were moving every two years, my husband would be gone.
[00:20:55] I had all these kids, all these medical appointments, plus the homeschooling. And, you know, suddenly you feel like that mom who's standing in the middle of the kitchen, that your face is red, you're breaking a sweat, the dog won't stop barking and the kid is crying and all the other ones are fighting. And you're like, I like it.
[00:21:11] Yeah, you know, you're like, I'm either going to yell and lose it and be like the worst mom ever today or something else is going to happen. So we had the family government and that was always posted in a public place so that I could very calmly say children Please meet me at the door or wherever it was that we had to post it here in this house.
[00:21:27] It's at the front door It's our most easy common area And so instead of me Having to go through that whole cycle of like mom loses it and mom feels horrible and then we have to go through apologies and reconciliation. And, you know, we still work on those things, but I don't have to lose it anymore. I can cut out a whole lot of that frustration and the kids can feel safer because when mom's not losing it.
[00:21:53] Kids feel safer when we go to the door and we review what we already all agreed upon as a family. So while they are going over that, looking at it, reading it aloud, whoever is able to read aloud reads it aloud, or they take turns and I'm calming down at the moment. We've had a sudden reset. It's been a pattern interrupt.
[00:22:12] So whatever was going on a minute ago, wasn't anymore. We've reconvened as a family team. We can then walk through proper conflict resolution skills. We can go through any kind of consequences that are necessary or just pray together. Okay, Lord, please come and intervene in this moment for us. We need you.
[00:22:31] And so having those preset based on a time when I was calm, I was regulated, I was working with my spouse, I was having conversations with my kids, alleviates that desperate feeling in the moment of chaos when you're like, I've got to give a consequence here and likely we're going to choose one that punishes us too, right?
[00:22:48] I don't have to do that anymore, I can go to the door with the whole family and we can have a reset. And it just really makes a big difference. So I encourage parents to set that up, it doesn't take a lot of time, it doesn't take a lot of thought, it only takes really a few, a few hours, a few days, a few date nights, whatever you want it to take.
[00:23:08] And some conversations with your family that lead into a bonded feeling that is going to last the test of time. Absolutely.
[00:23:17] Lacy Estelle: That sounds amazing. And actually, you totally sold this dream to me now. So now I have this big dream of all these things I'm going to do and I'm going to try to homeschool all my kids.
[00:23:26] I mean, I know I talked to you before that we're a blended family, so we don't get to call the shots when it comes to schooling. We do get to call the shots on some of the children. Um, I definitely want to dive into this because I've always, you know, as an ADHD woman myself, the overwhelm, like you were just talking about, the overwhelm can just be so like right now, I've been working on, I've been working really hard to not get overstimulated.
[00:23:51] Um, by like, you know, four o'clock because of all the driving. And so I have to drive to this school to pick up this child and then go to this school to do that. And then we might have an appointment in the meantime. And, and sometimes that means that by four or five o'clock I'm toast. My reserves are gone.
[00:24:06] I have zero energy left. I don't have anything left to give. I'm relying on God to sustain me just until bedtime. And, but the way that you, you just talk to me about it, it really actually sounds like. It might be more feasible if I were to be able to create the schedule around our, our environment. And then also, as far as communication goes, communication actually would become more clear and better because everybody would have the same understanding, the same underlying principles of this is what we agreed to do.
[00:24:38] This is what we agreed is our mission here. And this is our family. Team, because, you know, you have, especially in a blended family, you have, you know, your family, you say that it's a family, but as far as coming together and really working in that cohesive way that you're talking about, it does take very intentional.
[00:24:58] And, uh, yeah, now I, now I, I think I want to go homeschool. I want to try to homeschool all of my children. I already planned on homeschooling this one, but of course, you know, he's already almost a year old and I'm like, Oh, I should like start early. Right? Like, I don't know. I don't really know what I'm doing.
[00:25:12] Katie Keene: Well, the Neurodevelopmental Institute that I gave you the information for, they'll give you all the resources for that because you absolutely could do a whole lot of brain development with the baby. That's so fun. And it feels like playing, but you don't. Have to. I personally am a huge advocate for homeschooling and I have a lot of moms say to me, but I never could do that.
[00:25:30] I don't have the patience. I don't have the education, all these excuses. You know what, mom, you can do absolutely anything God calls you to. And if God has called you, do it, do it, do it because you will never regret it. You don't get this time back. I can say now that what I didn't understand before when all those irritating old people would say, it goes so fast, honey.
[00:25:48] Now I'm one of those irritating old people who says it goes so fast. Like, don't blink because my oldest is now nineteen and a half. I feel like he was as young and little as your sweet pea right there. You know, I just, oh gosh, it's so fast. And I don't regret a minute that I spent with them and the journey and the bond.
[00:26:07] So you can do it. And when you set yourself up with the right systems to support you, I feel that the family vision and the family government are a. Safety net for me and a self care method for me and my husband as much as it is for just establishing a good family foundation and peace in our home because it's just a way that we don't have to feel we can still parent well in the middle of a medical crisis in the middle of a really bad week when everything is breaking in the middle of financial strife.
[00:26:40] Like we can parent well, thank you. Based on God's principles and our decision, because we preset it up. And so it's just this safety net for us that we really appreciate having in our home.
[00:26:52] Lacy Estelle: Yeah. It sounds like even if you aren't homeschooling, that that is something that could be critical when it comes to, you know, making that cohesive family unit.
[00:27:00] And like you said, parenting. Parenting and in the wild, you know, you have all sorts of things going wrong. Let's just remember, you know, here's ground zero. So, Oh, and
[00:27:11] Katie Keene: definitely it does not have to be a homeschool family. Yes.
[00:27:14] Lacy Estelle: Yes. I, like I said, so, um, where can my audience find, uh, that information particularly?
[00:27:20] And then where else can we find you?
[00:27:22] Katie Keene: So I did a series on the podcast about family government. There's five part series. And if you go to my podcast, her home and heart. You'll see in the list, and if you type in family government, you may come up with some of the episodes to bring you to the series. You can also find all my most relevant stuff, shockingly, at my Linktree.
[00:27:39] It's my most fun place to put coupons and deals that are happening, information about my membership. It's just Linktree slash Family Success. There are a few other places that you can find me, but they're all linked right there. So, go there. Um, and the family government information, of course, I actually have inside of my membership.
[00:27:56] So, anybody who comes in there and gets that as a bonus, and occasionally I do sell it separately. So awesome.
[00:28:02] Lacy Estelle: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. I, I know that the information you gave is going to be so insanely valuable. Um, I'm going to go ahead and wrap this up and, um, thank you again.
[00:28:14] Like I said, for coming on and that. Guys, I will link to everything Katie talked about in the show notes, her link tree, her podcast, um, where you can find her. She is a wealth of knowledge, literally. Um, and I'm probably going to have her on the podcast again because, um, we have even so much about, so. Thank you so much for listening.
[00:28:34] What would really help me more than anything, if you feel inclined, is please leave me a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that's Spotify, Podbean, Apple Podcasts, all the like. It really helps for the show to show up for other people that maybe they need to hear it. Thanks again for being here.
[00:28:53] I appreciate you so much.